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#1 16-08-2011 10:18:18

scouter3d
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Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi,
I have a Newbrain, which is not starting. I replaced all electrolytic-Caps on the motherboard, the reset timing looks good (2sec and 7sec).
All the powervoltages read fine (+5, +12, -12). I even replaced the lower 16k memory ... the newbrain still does not boot!
After the 7sec reset there is 1 or 2seconds of activity on the Adress- and Datalines and then everything is "Stuck" ...

I have an oscilloscope and a basic understanding of electronics ...

Any help is welcome ...

Greetings from Austria TOM:-)

 

#2 23-08-2011 22:49:55

Saphir17
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi Tom...

Sounds like a hard one to fix. sad
The replacement of the reset cap's usually do the job...

For starters :

1. What revision of the NB circuit board is it : 12117/ ? / ?.
2. Take a photo of the circuit boards and let "us" have a look. Both sides... and with plenty of light and detail.
2. You said power +5,+12,-12 is OK. How about -5V. It's the zener-diode #1 and resistor #2 right next to the flat-ribbon cables to the  RAM board that makes the -5V.
3. Is the circuit board in good shape, meaning can there be bad soldering. Try re-solder all chips. Just reheat them. There might be a bad connection from top to bottom layer somewhere.
4. Since you can see activity, I guess you have a stable 4MHz clock. (Pin 6 on the Z80-CPU)
5. The flat ribbon cables to RAM and keyboard tends to break when you mess to much with it wink. Check all connections.

That's my suggestions for the moment.
The NewBrain is very sturdy electronics. TTL logic and ROM's doesn't just quit like that....

Best regards
Michael


Aarhus, Denmark
NewBrain's: Model A & AD, ExpansionBox, DiskController + Drives, ROM-Box
 

#3 23-08-2011 23:01:26

scouter3d
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your reply!

) yes the -5V is also OK
) yes there is a clock on CPU pin 6
) i have checked the ribbon cables, but will check again ...

Will take photos / Videos and post them tomorrow ...

Thanks TOM:-)

 

#4 24-08-2011 18:12:30

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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi,

So here are the photos and a video of one of the datalines (D3) ...

http://www.8bit-homecomputermuseum.at/n … d_back.jpg
http://www.8bit-homecomputermuseum.at/n … _front.jpg
with my notes:
http://www.8bit-homecomputermuseum.at/n … _notes.jpg

http://www.8bit-homecomputermuseum.at/n … _front.jpg
http://www.8bit-homecomputermuseum.at/n … d_back.jpg

And the Video of D3 at Startup:
http://www.8bit-homecomputermuseum.at/n … tartup.MPG


Ad 1) The Motherboard is a rev. 7, the Ramboard a rev. 8
Ad 2) +5, +12, -12, -5 OK!
Ad 3) Will wait a little with resoldering all chips ...
Ad 4) Yes, there is a stable Clock on CPU pin 6
Ad 5) Checked all Ribbon Cables => OK

I checked following Signals Again:

Reset after 2sec
Powerup after 4sec

D3 measured on COP (see Video) activity starts after the the 4sec (powerup) and after a few seconds breaks down ...
PS: only D3 breaks down like this, the other D´s simply get stuck

Signals Measured on CPU which are presumably wrong:

INT always Low !!! i think thats wrong ... (but COPINT is pulsing)
BUSREQ and BUSAK not pulsing !!! wrong again ...
WR not pulsing !!! wrong again ...


Many Thanks in advance ...

Greetings TOM:-)

 

#5 25-08-2011 16:47:37

Saphir17
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi Tom...

No comments to the mainboard. It looks fine.

On the RAM-board however the wire connecting the broken path is not mounted on a working NB I have (Rev 12118/B/8).
Also a 4.7k pull-up resistor is placed between pin 6 and 9 on IC401, connection A6 to VCC(+5V)

You are using a 41256 so A7 and A8 shall be held low.
It's hard to see on the pictures, but the following pins on all 41256 shall be :

41256 Chip
Pin 1, A8 : Pulled from the socket and connected to Pin 16, GND
Pin 9, A7 : Pulled from the socket and connected to Pin 16, GND
Pin 8, VCC: Pulled from the socket and connected to Socket Pin 9 (VCC on the original chip MM5290.

Hope this make a difference.

Michael


error: image http://www.newbrain.info/components/com_agora/img/members/17/RAM#2.jpg cannot be loaded.error: image http://www.newbrain.info/components/com_agora/img/members/17/RAM#1.jpg cannot be loaded.error: image http://www.newbrain.info/components/com_agora/img/members/17/RAM#3.jpg cannot be loaded.


Aarhus, Denmark
NewBrain's: Model A & AD, ExpansionBox, DiskController + Drives, ROM-Box
 

#6 25-08-2011 16:51:00

Saphir17
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hmmm...

The images didn't link as I expected...

I'll try something else...


Aarhus, Denmark
NewBrain's: Model A & AD, ExpansionBox, DiskController + Drives, ROM-Box
 

#7 25-08-2011 18:34:26

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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi,

You mean the path on the Ramboard is intentionally broken (disconnected)?
The Signal connects BUSAK to Pin 3 and 4 of IC 423

So i removed my "Patchwire" again => nothing changed ...

At first i had replaced the Lower Rams with 4164 Chips and even added the 4.7K Resistor => also not working
I havent tried the resistor with the 2165 Chips yet

I am a little confused about replacing the 4116 whith the 4164 eg. 41256:
I found the following on a commodore Webpage:
on the 6164 i bent up Pin 1 and Pin 8, then cut off Pin 1 and connect Pin 8 to Pin 9 (So A7 is High)
on the 41256 i bent up Pin 1 and Pin 8, then connect Pin 1 to Pin 16 and Pin 8 to Pin 9 (So A7 is High and A8 is Low)

Does it make a difference if A7 is always High instead of Low? or is there simply another memoryblock used?


On the Motherboard i have replaced the capacitor 124 and i found it strange, that there is a Signal on One Side (Front of MB), but Groundlevel on the other Side is that OK? Is the capacitor completly "swallowing" the Signal?

PS: As your pictures didn´t link, You can also mail them to me: thomas@inka-schamane.at


Greetings TOM:-)

 

#8 26-08-2011 19:40:20

Saphir17
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi Thomas...

Regarding the Commodore info then I definitely think that both A7 and A8 should be held low.

If A7 is held high then the CPU can't access below 256 or F0H in that chip.

Take this for example : NB want to access mem-cell#0 and is setting up all address-lines (A0-A6) to low, A7 is held high.
A8 A7 A6 A5 A4 A3 A2 A1 A0
0   1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0

The a the memory-cell read-out is Address #128 and not Address #0. And what is getting out on the databus is a garbage value.
I'm quit sure pulling A7 high will cause problems.


The C124 is working along with R123 in at high-pass filter. What it actual do good for, remain in the darkness but it will be filtering signals away below ~2MHz.
TTL design can generate unwanted ultra fast spikes. Maybe that's what it is there fore. Try keeping the same value at 150pF.

Try to fix all the 41256 chips with A7 and A8 pulled low as suggested above. It will be messy so I guess best solution is to find some 16Kx1 chips instead or even the original ones if you can find them.
Suitable chips are : MM5290, HM4716AP, D416C-3....and more

Best Regards
Michael


Aarhus, Denmark
NewBrain's: Model A & AD, ExpansionBox, DiskController + Drives, ROM-Box
 

#9 26-08-2011 23:20:02

scouter3d
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi,

I asked about C124 because the INT Signal on the CPU is always LOW, so i traced it back and i found the CLK Signal always high and this is partly produced by FRM (seems OK) going thru C124 and becoming zero so i wondered ...

I also found no Clockimpulses on IC422, 423 and 424 PINs 2 ...

Regarding A7 high or low:

Yes, you are right, the memory would read at 128 but it would write there also and the computer wont know the difference (because he only knows A0-A6) or am i wrong (this trick is often used when you burn 2 or more OSes (2x 4K into one 8K) into one Eprom and to switch between them you simply pull one of the higher Adress lines High or Low ... Please correct me when i am wrong ...

PS: The Ramboard modification (Resitor on 401) is it a 470 Ohm  or a 4.7KOhm you wrote 4.7k but the Technical Manual says 470R????

Greetings and many thanks ...

 

#10 27-08-2011 15:45:50

Saphir17
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi Thomas...

Sorry for my persistens.... Your absolutely right about having A7 high and A8 low.

With A7 high and A8 low, you will be working in the upper half of the chip, from address 128-256 and with A7 and A8 low you will be working from address 0-127... Same, same, but different.
The A7-high option is easier thou...

Only thing about the picture of your 41256 setup is that it looks like you have pin 1 and pin 8 in the socket.
If so, you have connected A8 and GND to VBB(-5V) and VCC and A7 to VDD(12V).
Pin 1 and pin 8 have to be pulled from the socket.


I have been discussing your problem with another member (Kluder), and he points to RAM timing problems.
If you not already have look up the Dutch web site http://newbrain.hcc.nl/ and the document "Tradecom Technical Documentation", do so and check if you have all updates regarding RAM timing (page 49 to 57 and more.) Check that you use the right rev. Here it also states (pg 57) that it is a 470R used on the IC401
My RAM board shows the same updates, so you might already have been there...

Keep us updated on progress.

Michael


Aarhus, Denmark
NewBrain's: Model A & AD, ExpansionBox, DiskController + Drives, ROM-Box
 

#11 27-08-2011 16:41:31

Saphir17
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi again...

BTW. My NB has a mainboard rev. 117/*/7 together with RAM-board rev. 118/*/8

/Michael


Aarhus, Denmark
NewBrain's: Model A & AD, ExpansionBox, DiskController + Drives, ROM-Box
 

#12 28-08-2011 15:42:45

scouter3d
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi,

Pin 1 and Pin 8 of the 41256er chips are not inserted ...

Sorry, but i have no possibilty to check RAM timing, because my cheap oscilloscope only has 1 Channel ...

I dont think the fault is on the Ramboard, because the same fault was with the original Ramchips and nothing changed on the board. the changing of the ramchips was in the process of me trying to fix it ...

I tried to pull out the lower 16k ramchips => same fault
I tried to pull out the COP420 => same fault
I tried to switch to upper Rambank (connecting pin 1 and pin 6 on the Expansionbus) during bootup => same fault

Greetings TOM:-)

 

#13 28-08-2011 20:56:00

Saphir17
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi Thomas...

As I said in my first post, it's a hard one to crack...

I think we need to establish which parts are working and which are not.

I have some spare parts lying around.
How about I send you a working main-board and Ram-board.
Then you can see for yourself which board that is the problem and then we have a better focus on what might be the problem.

There is plenty of faulty NB's around, so it will be nice if we fix this NB and start establish a Q/A on how to fix faulty NB's.

Email me you address and I will send them in a couble of days.

best
Michael


Aarhus, Denmark
NewBrain's: Model A & AD, ExpansionBox, DiskController + Drives, ROM-Box
 

#14 29-08-2011 13:11:39

scouter3d
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi Michael,

Thank you for your great offer !!! (you have Mail ;-))

I am interrested and i will contribute to a NewBrain repair project / FAQ / Repair Manual !!!

How about we call it project "BrainSurgery"

We could dokument all the Signals that should be present at Startup and trace them back to their origin.
I would like to make it as easy as possible with a lot of pictures (Graphical route on the Mainboard and description of the Signal)
We could split it in "fault search with a multimeter" and the advanced "fault search using an oscilloscope"

Maybe we could find a few replacement parts that often fail in the Newbrain and offer them as a service ...

You see, a lot of ideas ...

Greetings TOM:-)

 

#15 29-08-2011 20:43:45

Saphir17
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Yes, something like that, but I don't think we have to go to signal-level aside for the already described timing measuring.

As I said in the first post TTL logic don't just die. Of cause if it have be exposed to heavy static discharge the maybe...

We have to assume that the NB worked when it left the factory some where early in the 1980'

So if  :
Power OK : Stable Power with "minimum" noise-ripple. Change all power Cap's.
Reset OK : Change the two reset capacitors
Clock OK : 4Mhz on pin 6 at the Z80.
Board generally looking ok : Updated according to technical manual.
Flat ribbons OK : No broken connections in the flat-ribbons.
...then it should work.

If not...then you could expect faults in :
1. Some of all the small pF capacitors that tune the timing her and there might have lost some of there value.
2. ROM's ...nah. Maybe EPROM, but then again, no. Never see a working EPROM fail that have only been erased and burned once.
3. A faulty power-supply that have fried something... But if power is OK then I doubt it.

I have fixed a handful of NB's now, and all of them sprung to life after changing the reset-cap's

Best regards
Michael


Aarhus, Denmark
NewBrain's: Model A & AD, ExpansionBox, DiskController + Drives, ROM-Box
 

#16 01-09-2011 17:54:20

scouter3d
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi Michael,

Regardimg TTL logic don´t die ... i have alread seen:
1) dead TTL Buffer Chip in a BBC Model B (Just died one day and i get weird characters on the screen)
2) today i found a dead 47LS00 NAND (Output stuck High)in a Pet 2001
... but you are right, they do not die easy.

Regarding the NewBrain:
Yesterday i met a fellow collector with a good osci and more electronic knowledge than me (He is mainly a Sinclair Guru, but i figured the NewBrain was designed by Sinclair and a lot of components are similar).

He recommended changing the other Ramchips (2. bank) also because a faulty chip there would also influence the 1. bank ...
So i borrowed a few 6116 chips from him ...

What do you think?
Should i try changing the 2. bank or should i wait for the boards you are sending me?

We also measured the generation of the CLKINT Signal and we found a tiny spark at the other side of c 124 but not a "real" Signal ... so i am still wondering if that is OK...

Greetings TOM:-)

 

#17 01-09-2011 23:25:10

Saphir17
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi Thomas...

Just go nuts in changing RAM chips.

There might be a issue with the 41265 that we have missed. RAS, CAS, or pagecycle that don't do exactly as the MM5290.

Regarding the C124 you can check it (undersold) and measure the resistance. It should read infinite.

All these small cap's are timing / signal-conditioner. If not up to spec. they might contribute to timing problems.

The Glass-cap's across +5V and GND is just for cleaning up the powersupply for noise generated by the TTL's.
They are less important, but if all are missing/defective the TTL's will probably get affected by the noise.

I will not get ship the boards before Monday. To much work....

br
Michael


Aarhus, Denmark
NewBrain's: Model A & AD, ExpansionBox, DiskController + Drives, ROM-Box
 

#18 12-09-2011 23:17:33

scouter3d
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi Michael,

Just received your parcel!

I soldered the adapters onto my boards and tried a few things:

seems like my ramboard is working (but only with 16k i tried the poke 20000,0 and poke 20000,255 and print peek(20000) trick mentioned in the repair manual but it showed the correct 0 and 255 result ... very strange!?!) and my keyboard is working also.

So the fault must be on the mainboard

I also tried changing the only socketed chips: CPU and the COP420 => nothing changes ... so i think they are OK

So i think i have to dig deeper ...

Greetings and many thanks TOM:-)

 

#19 13-09-2011 18:33:29

Saphir17
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi Thomas...

Just to get it right...

Your Keyboard and Mainboard and my RAM board will not start.
My Keyboard and Mainboard and your RAM board will start.

bg
Michael


Aarhus, Denmark
NewBrain's: Model A & AD, ExpansionBox, DiskController + Drives, ROM-Box
 

#20 13-09-2011 18:57:39

scouter3d
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi,

My Keyboard, my Ramboard + Your Motherboard = working (but only 16kb)
Your Keyboard, your Ramboard + My Motherboard = NOT working (white Screen, 3 Characters blink on the "Keyboard display")

Greetings TOM:-)

 

#21 15-09-2011 10:27:40

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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi Michael,

I started to crosscheck Signals at startup between your Newbrain and mine.

Beginning with the clock signal i found that CHIP 441 PIN 8 is sometimes 8MHz (which is correct) and sometimes 16MHz (wrong)
If i start the Newbrain after 10 seconds resting PIN 8 goes to 16MHz (wrong), if i restart with only 1 second (i know i should not do that ...) the signal goes to 8MHz.

i traced the signal backwards and found => CHIP 444 PIN 7 (same thing) => CHIP 444 PIN 1 (BOL) Signal is sometimes High (wrong) and sometimes Low at Startup => BOL is generated by CHIP 427 (74LS174 FLIP FLOP) PIN 7 which is sometimes High and sometimes Low at startup ...

Maybe CHIP 427 is defect?

Greetings TOM:-)

PS: Till next wednesday i am on a small holyday in the mountains ...

 

#22 15-09-2011 21:58:46

Saphir17
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi Thomas...

Cool of you to discovering these differences.

I would have lost my patience after two minutes and just changed all the chips.. big_smile

Have a nice holiday.

Michael


Aarhus, Denmark
NewBrain's: Model A & AD, ExpansionBox, DiskController + Drives, ROM-Box
 

#23 22-09-2011 20:24:38

scouter3d
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi Michael,

Having returned from my holyday (including 10cm snow!)i have changed the 74LS174 and ....

No change at all! PIN 7 of IC 427 still stays (wrongfully) HIGH ... and my freshly recovered nervs are tested ... :-)

PIN 9 (the clock input) seems to be the same on the working board and on the defect one ... but maybe i cant see the tiny short impuls ...

Maybe something totaly different is wrong?

Greetings TOM:-)

 

#24 24-09-2011 10:05:11

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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi,

I have tried something:
I removed the 74LS174 from its socket and measured the BOL signal. As BOL is generated from this chip i thought i should read zero but i get a reading of 1.4V on the Osci ???? is this OK? Is this because of the now "floating" inputs of the Logic Chips where BOL is going to? or is there something wrong with the "GROUND"

PS: the other Signals generated also read 1.4V ...

An other thing i dont understand:
As the Signals in the 74LS174 are generated from the Datalines and an "register/Clock" input i wonder:
All the DATAlines go High at poweron (as the CPU is not yet working ...)
5V goes naturally high on poweron (where the reset pin of the 74LS174 is also tied to)
I cant say if there is an impuls on the clock pin (if there is on it is to short to measure)
So why are some of the 74LS174 Outputs HIGH and some LOW?

Maybe all these Signals are not important at startup? and something else is wrong ...

Greetings TOM:-)

 

#25 24-09-2011 11:43:58

Saphir17
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Re: Broken NewBrain Help needed!

Hi Thomas...

As to the 1.4V you are measuring, it's very possible that it's floating inputs.
If you look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor … stor_logic you will see that measuring voltage on a input you are "looking straight" into the emitter of a transistor which finds it way to ground through another transistor making up the 1.4V because of the voltage drop over the two diodes in each transistor, of 0.7V.

As to what is wrong I have absolutely no idea.
It is very difficult to debug TTL circuits if you do not have knowledge of the sequence of power up. You do not know what to expect to measure.

One thing I can say is that when a successful reset is done, the CPU will start to step through the ROM's and reading code, so there shall be activity on the address/data bus.

This might stop very quickly due to other faults of cause...

Can you see activity on  :
- IC421, the data buffer to RAM. Is there activity on RD/ and the data pins?
- IC402,3,4,5 the address buffer to RAM. Is there activity on the ROW, TVAD and the address pins?

If you can see activity, even for a short time, there is a good chance that the "CPU and RAM connection" is not the problem...

Maybe the ROM's. If garbage data is read from the ROM, the the CPU halts and all signals comes to a stop.
Your ROM is a EPROM and this might have lost some bits over the years, but I have newer heard them to do that.
If it was a ROM there is no chance for it to loos data, since the bits is fuses that is burnt for "0" and not for "1".

Of cause a garbage value can also be introduced by defective logic.

This brings me back to the start of this post, where I mentioned reheating all solder points to check that all connections is good.
This is plausable since we should assume that it was put in the attic working and now it's not. The only cause is time and corrosion.

A good thing is that we know that the fault is in the mainboard.....

Keep on fighting...

br
Michael


Aarhus, Denmark
NewBrain's: Model A & AD, ExpansionBox, DiskController + Drives, ROM-Box
 


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